Expand Your Ability: Embodiment, Somatics, and Feldenkrais

00:00
On today's episode of the expand your ability podcast. Like general public probably thinks more of things like why you do that, because you're motivated to do something. And I would explain it somehow a bit differently. Like you do something because a behavior in your past had a good outcome, a good consequence. And so when you have that environment, that contextual situation again,

00:28
you will do that behavior again, like you're more likely to try this thing again, because it worked in your past. And of course, there are negative outcomes as well. So if you have some negative experiences with a behavior in a certain context, then you might refrain from doing that. Welcome to the Expand Your Ability Podcast. I'm your host, Jeffrey Schwinghammer. On today's episode, we have on Caroline Ritter.

00:55
She has a background in studying behavioral economics, philosophy, and cognitive science. She is now in her third year of her Feldenkrais training program. In our conversation today we talk about a lot of things, from acquiring new knowledge about ourselves, our habits, and our perception, to living and being curious with ourselves, to positive reinforcement, and how our social context affects us.

01:26
Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Caroline Ritter. Welcome Caroline. How are you? Hi, I'm very well today. Thanks for inviting me. Been really looking forward. Awesome. It's good to have you. Um, yeah. So we're talking about knowledge generation today. What do we mean by knowledge generation? Um, I was thinking about knowledge generation a lot.

01:55
like, because I'm really interested in the topic of learning in general. So when I came to Feldenkrais training, we talked a lot about the self image and I was thinking, okay, how does my self image influence what I'm learning and how I'm getting knowledge? And then also,

02:21
How do I actually build my knowledge system? How do I build my self-image with which I can perceive the world?

02:32
Okay, yeah. Self-image is like a topic, a term we've used a lot on this podcast. How would you describe, what is a self-image?

02:46
I always say that phrase, it's like the lens with which we look at the world. So our self-image is dynamic, of course, like we all experience changes in how we we look at things. Sometimes we are in a good mood, sometimes we were in a bad mood, and depending on that we perceive the world differently.

03:14
I think it's very much.

03:18
a thing that we can develop, we can also look at our patterns, how we perceive things. So how do we look at the world? Right, because how you look at the world changes what you see. Is that what you mean? Yes.

03:47
I have to think about that a bit. Sure.

03:54
I'm thinking also that it's not exactly like we always use the metaphor of seeing, of course. We look at the world, we go for different perspectives, different viewpoints, and sometimes it's much more of a whole body experience, and we sometimes really leave out the other senses when we look at the world, look at the world, when we feel the world or when we get in contact with the world.

04:23
Like, for example, when we obtain some cognitive knowledge, like facts from a textbook, then it's looking at a text. And that's such a different experience than when you look at the world and are immersed in some kind of context and you use all of your senses, your hearing, your sense of touch and your sense of smell. And that's such a different...

04:54
way of gaining knowledge. Yeah, knowledge, right? Because like, when I grew up, knowledge was what you got out of textbooks, it was right, what the teacher told you. And you're using knowledge in a kind of broader way here.

05:16
Yes, like I definitely think there is like also nonverbal knowledge that of course we don't speak so much about because it's nonverbal. So it's all that we do somehow like our movement skills and yeah maybe also how we regulate our feelings and stuff like that. Like it's not all in the language, it's not all in the talking and it's not all in the facts. So I think there is a lot of

05:45
thoughts and sensing that we do without using language. And without using language also means that we are more in the gradient, like we are more in between things and not like it's not a one or zero. Like with language when we talk about something somehow it's starting to be in some way dead or not dynamic anymore because like it's somehow pinpointed and it's like

06:15
stopped. The movement is stopped. Like, this is it. This is the fact. And this is how I'm going to think about it from now. So sometimes not naming something can help and just like being open to things, being open to experiences and knowledge with that. Yeah, being in the gradients, you know, you're not in the conclusion of one thing or the other, naming it.

06:45
but you can actually be in this open space of no conclusion, kind of experiencing, or I like the word unfolding, something's emerging or changing in movement. And that's something that comes out of the Feldenkrais work in particular.

07:06
Yes, I think also this thing that you can be interested in even smaller details. Like you think, okay, I'm, there is like, I don't know, a thousand different lessons from Moshe, and we can do all those lessons. And then we did it, then we are like done. So what's, what's behind that? But of course, you can get interested in just like your big toe, or your knee moving, and it can fill the whole life. Because when you start

07:35
not naming it when you don't refer to the knees movements as going left and right and up and down and all that you have words for but like create everything that's in between and like build a language of your own like the language of your knee can be helpful to like zoom in really and really go deep in something and like go beyond what we can like it's it's for me it's hard because I'm

08:04
I'm a generalist, I'm interested in so many things and I'm just, yeah, I'm looking into one topic and I'm like, yeah, that's so interesting. And then I go off to the next one. But sometimes going over that border and really going behind and looking deeply, that's sometimes it's hard for me.

08:28
But this is like for me, that's a door to that.

08:34
that is adored to them.

08:37
at art to zooming in on the details. Zooming in on the details, right. So I feel like you're in good company. I'm also a generalist. I have a lot of expansive interests. And so we can develop knowledge about ourselves. I like that, like developing your own language of how your knee moves. I was teaching a lesson recently about the arches of the feet and...

09:06
how that can create a spiral in the legs. And it's like, well, the knees aren't just hinges, right? That was one of the points that came up in the class and what they were exploring is like, oh, there's more to the knee than just a straight hinge. There's a lot going on that we can sense. And so, yeah, I think that's really great. They're putting it as knowledge generation, right? That we can learn about ourselves. And what a...

09:33
Take us further. What does it mean when we develop this knowledge? Yeah, I mean another way you can look at it is not looking at knowledge as something you own or you get and then you have. But think of knowing as a verb and continuous process and something that lets you do things. Because there is that famous quote from Moshe.

10:01
where he says, like, I see and I forget, I hear and I remember, and I do and I understand. And I really think that's true. Like, when you do, when you can apply a knowledge, then you really understand it. And then it's useful and it's functional. And I think that's also how we assess the knowledge, like the ability to do something with it. So I think that's a point. And

10:28
Also, when we talk about knowing instead of knowledge, then we think about it as more of a dynamic, more of a process oriented thing, rather than something with a goal, like you get the knowledge and then what. But knowing and being in the process of knowing will just get you further. It's like walking, you will just keep on walking. And with every other

10:56
hill you walk on, you will see further. So yeah, you know, when I read different things, right, I learn from different people. One of the things that like, I'm always looking for what, what are the overlapping principles? What, what connects this domain or this teaching with this other teaching? And what are the ones that are really in commonality that I think feel more true? And one of the things is that noun versus verb.

11:25
There's something there that is so different, I think, than our classic way of knowing, at least in my corner of North America, that this knowing, having nouns and having objects versus verbs and kind of the flow of that, it reminds me of the image of like, you can't step in the same river twice. Yes. And you can't read the same book twice.

11:54
Every time you go to the same thing you will look at it in a different angle, with different experiences in your chest.

12:07
Right. There's different experiences inside and different experiences outside too. I mean, it's more obvious in a river than perhaps the book. The book is maybe more us in a way, but still there's still time. The whole image changes, right? And we can go back to the same awareness through movement lesson time and time again and find something new. Because moment by moment, we're always changing in some way.

12:36
And so I really like that image of like knowledge, like, because knowledge is like conclusions again. Like I have the thing, I have it, I have the idea. And you're pointing us to like knowing, working with it, acting with it. How is it practical? Yeah.

13:00
And then you also have this attribute of that it's dynamic, that it's in flux, like you said with the river, that you really have to work also to keep it. You have to apply it and you hold, you can think of it as a relationship. You have a relation with your knowledge or with the things you know something about. And if you think about another person, like they change and you change and you...

13:27
If you want to keep up a friendship, you have to invest time and attention and you have to hold that relation and always come to it in a new way and meet them new. That knowledge is also a thing that you have to share. If you're isolated and sit in your room and read your book and you have all those facts in your head, what does it help you? Like if you don't at least go outside and apply it or...

13:55
share your knowledge with somebody else and get different perspectives, it will probably not be that useful.

14:05
Right. In an information rich environment, like our modern day worlds with the internet and libraries upon books and, you know, books and books. Like we can, we can be a storehouse for information that is kind of stagnant. You can think we've got all these great things, but if we're not creating with it, we're, we're missing kind of the second step of learning. Definitely. And conversations are a great way to have that.

14:35
second step.

14:38
Yeah. There is also another analogy I thought about, which is if you have your knowledge system, it can be thought of as something like a building. So maybe you have a very rigid building, but then you are, I guess, pretty closed minded because if you turn out, if you take out something from that building, it will fall down because it's so rigid.

15:05
But if you have a more flexible building that will somehow bend, yes, maybe it's not that stable. Like it can be like somebody pushes it and it boggles a bit around or wobbles. And but like taking something out, putting something back in, it's like it's more of a. Yeah, it's more fragile, maybe, but also more open to change.

15:35
So what does this look like to in practice in acting? Like how does one work with their knowledge generating or the knowledge system? What does that mean for you exactly?

15:54
Well, I can tell a bit about my, how I came to that conclusion, maybe because I think that's kind of, everybody comes to their conclusions in a different way. So I'm just going to share my story. I got really interested in philosophy in high school and like kept on reading and went even further down the rabbit hole and at some point I was like, they are just

16:22
always talking about things, it's not even concrete. And then I, I, I got rid of all the philosophy stuff. And I was like, okay, now I'm gonna go into science, I'm gonna go read about natural science, because at least that's telling you something about the world. And it's like, facts, it's not so metaphysical, maybe.

16:46
But then again, it's like, it's in the application. And if you don't, even if you learn a lot about the world, it doesn't really help you in applying stuff. So I found that application in the end in training animals. Like I was always living with animals and I think I really got into positive animal training.

17:15
force free methods, I think 12 years ago around that time. And I read up on the science behind it. I got a lot into like behavior analysis and stuff like that. And that really helped me to have a transition from a really scientific principles and apply them in real life.

17:44
And I thought that was, that's somehow how you can do something with the knowledge. Like always find a way to use what you have, and even if it's just like in a conversation as we have. Like now I can enjoy philosophy again, because sometimes it's all in the middle. But yeah, I think, I think suddenly looking at the thing from different angles, applying it.

18:13
sharing it and being able to look for the details. Like if you are...

18:24
you are looking at things like in hundred different ways and you will always find one more. Like there is no limit to going deeper I guess.

18:38
Yeah, I think we can also talk about curiosity here because that's also something that's related to that, how to build curiosity and how to go deeper and stay with something and be curious.

18:58
Right. Because I think, yeah, I think we.

19:05
I think that we, like in our educational system, like the normal schools, like we have in the Western world at least, are very much oriented towards like, okay, stuffing in facts and don't get, don't live a lot of time where things can sediment and there is not a lot of room for application, but also not a lot of room for using it for yourself because

19:35
Yes, you can have exercises, you can apply it, and somebody tells you how to apply it, but still is it a functional knowledge for you? Like, can you use it? Does it make sense for you? Does it have meaning or relevance? So I think that's something that we need to encourage more, that we install a meaning in the knowledge we create, or we want others to get.

20:02
And I think that's why we are asking so many questions in the ATMs. Sometimes like it's more of a, um, a pathway or guiding towards your own answers and not statements. Right. Yeah. There's something there using it for yourself, right? That, that is, um, takes you the.

20:31
classic school system that we have that kind of using facts that other people think are important and do you really get to test them out for yourself? Common phrasing I've heard is, you know, tools or resources that you can develop through somatic movement or Feldenkrais, that you, you, these become tools for you. And I could really feel that when you said, you know,

20:59
how can you use it for yourself? Test out the practical application that like the idea is something that you should be like testing out. You should be working on it and like, okay, is this a good idea? All right, let me see. Here's a situation. I'm working with a horse or an animal or with a person. Here's something, does it work? And then you can see it over many, many.

21:29
iterations, right? It's the trying here, trying there. And it's maybe it's not so intuitive at times, because it's so it's like sometimes it was just an idea, but it's not something sound as obvious as if you actually had a tool, perhaps. Right? We might not be guided to think, oh, here's here's this wrench. Will it work here? Yeah. How does that feel for you? Yes, yes, I just had another idea.

21:58
that also relates to this, that we, of course, we test things out, we try them, they are good or bad or turn out effective for us. And then we hold on to them. And we don't let go anymore, because we are so proud of them somehow, and it works so well. So we don't, we don't want to forget what we know. And I think that's also sometimes something that is in our way, because

22:28
Like forgetting is not the same as never knowing. So it's somewhere. Like you have to trust sometimes that you knew things and they come back and you can tap into them again. Like you don't have to have everything on the top of your head, but in the right moment it will just emerge again.

22:55
and.

22:59
I remember like one time in our training, I think that was the first one of the first days of our training and Donna Ray said, like, think of the things you already forgot from the training and we were like all very like, oh my god, we forgot so much and we were really unsure and but over the years, it feels now that it's you can really trust yourself and you can trust your bodily.

23:28
memory more than you can trust your verbal memory, I would say, or you can trust in your body or your whole mind, which is more than your brain, obviously, to bring back the memory through the context, through the environment, and that the memory will come back in the right moment. Right. That's really important for me to hear.

23:57
It still dogs me a little bit is the desire to not forget. And that's part of the process is that, you know, some things will be clear against, you know, what emerges, what emerges. Let's be kind with myself as I go from moment to moment. And, cause there's like an absolute like creativity that comes out too, that is also new. Cause it's not just applying what you've learned. It's also like,

24:27
the other person is in that, you know, in that lesson or whatever is, or the conversation is, it's a dance together, right? It's, we're making something together. And I don't just apply the past, you know, wholesale, here's the thing here, but it's through, you know, working together that, you know, what comes forward comes forward. Yeah, you're making a future somehow, or you're

24:59
You were saying earlier about in awareness through movement, we ask a lot of questions.

25:08
How is the structure of awareness through movement really helpful for knowledge generation?

25:18
for learning about yourself.

25:27
I think from the teacher's perspective, like how I teach it and I try to teach it, is not to take anything away from the eureka moments of the person. You want to guide them, you want to create a learning environment, but you don't want to tell them what to experience or what.

25:57
revelation to have. Because it's something that's actually the best part that you do a lesson, you think like, okay, I'm just like moving my foot a bit from the left to the right. And then suddenly you're like, whoa, that's something. And you don't want anybody to tell you that you want reassurance. So it's nice if you can like, say the thing.

26:25
after some time, like when you feel like everybody got it, then you somehow you will reveal what it is, what everybody already experienced. So you might say like, I don't know, you're pushing your foot into the floor and then the movement truss travels up to your head and your head starts to roll.

26:51
then when you see everybody rolling their head and you can say like, yeah, it's somehow it's traveling up your spine and your head is rolling. And yeah, so I think, yeah, a lot of it's, it's a very, um, you have to be very careful as a teacher. I mean, not, not, um, really, um, I mean, careful is maybe the wrong word, but you have to be very sensitive to your students that how you are. Um,

27:21
making that learning happening is it's more of a setting them up for success than actually giving them instructions.

27:33
And I think creating a space where it's nice to make, yeah, where it's nice to make explorations and come to your own conclusions. That's probably the best part. Right. Come to your own conclusions. Because it's so like, because it's like everyone is an absolute individual in the class. Yeah. Everyone shares a skeleton, a nervous system, muscles. Everyone has their own and they're alike for sure.

28:03
And everyone has decades of their own experience that shapes their body and shapes their movement. And so, yeah, we need to ask people questions more so than directions or like, oh, you should feel this, you should feel that. Like, I have no way of knowing exactly what everyone's gonna feel. And so the best way is to direct people into their own experience. To hey, find out for yourself, is this true?

28:32
What's going on here? What is this for you? What do you notice? Yeah. And then to, you know, gently kind of find a way to, okay, what overlaps between everyone? Okay, is everyone sensing something? Yeah, pressing the foot. Does the head roll, right? Oh, what can we do with that? And I have a group of people at my local community senior center.

29:00
And like, they're very talkative people. And so that we're all sharing during the lesson. And it's an awesome experience. Cause like, someone would be like, oh, my arm just got a lot heavier and a lot longer and the other person's like, well, my other arm feels this way. And you know, this was like, well, my head rolls a little of these and then just people are just chip chipping in and it really sets the stage or the, the, the feeling that like, Hey, we're all in this together and it's okay. If I'm a little bit different.

29:29
It's okay, whatever I'm experiencing is good.

29:35
Yeah, I like that a lot. Like I'm currently giving awareness for movement lessons like one on one because I'm not allowed yet to do the functional integration. So I'm like doing a verbal instruction with people alone. And that's also like that's a conversation. And I really like that also, like you are just like talking about it. But then also, I like it also maybe if you if you don't talk about it so much.

30:04
Like it's also nice sometimes, especially when you when you practice functional integration to not name everything. I mean, language is very important and coming back to an experience. And if you like want to name it, you can easily remember it and get yourself into it again. But it leaving it open is so potent as well. So sometimes I like when I when I practice when when I have a friend over for RFI.

30:34
And we just do our stuff. And sometimes we just, after that, we just leave it and we don't talk about it. Right. Yeah. It's, do you do some other reflection? I mean, it can be so attractive to like, Oh, if we do talk about it, we can put it into words and maybe understand it. But if we leave it open, it was actually more there than we can kind of pack into word boxes.

31:02
How do you reflect on your experience? Or is it something that you have the experience and good, and move on? That'd be with me in some way. Yeah, I think with FI it's much easier or if you work with somebody one-on-one because then you have the information in your hands. Like you felt it, you followed the movement. There is much more immediate feedback.

31:30
So you see what works, you see what feels good or what does something and you see the reaction of the other person or you see what comes out of your contact. In a group class, of course, I would probably always go for a sharing of experience because I think everybody can profit from sharing.

31:58
And yeah, it's hard because we are such verbal, such a verbal species. So it's hard to not go and talk about it. But yeah, yeah. Staying with the unknown. And we're on a verbal platform right here as a podcast, as a conversation. Yeah. We have to, we have to put in words to talk about it or, you know, talking about it as good. And then there's something so not verbal that is so important. Right.

32:27
I mean, oftentimes in a lesson where I'm on the floor, I'm the student, I just don't have words. Like words would be too slow or too, it would take some time to like chisel out what is the right word for this experience or the right phrasing. And it's, yeah, being in that flow of that sensation, that experience.

32:57
There was one thought that I had but I forgot it.

33:05
Well, I'm sure it'll come back. I'm curious if you would share a little bit about working with animals. You said you went from philosophy to science, and then you wanted to apply the science, and then you were working with animals, and then you came to Felton Christ, eventually. What was it like to take what you were learning and apply them and play with them in the context of working with animals?

33:36
Well, I started getting in contact with Ferdinand Kreis. I was at the workshop in Italy and we had an ATM lesson every day. It was a really cool workshop about positive animal training.

33:57
I don't know, I learned so much of how to give the animal space, like to ask what is possible for you, how do you make all the environmental arrangements that you can see a behavior happening from the animal, that you can then reinforce. Giving time for rest, for pause. There were just so many principles that I didn't apply really to myself.

34:27
Of course, I was thinking about how is positive reinforcement happening in my life and why am I doing things just by analyzing the contingencies and the consequences of my behavior and seeing the patterns and everything. But I think I never had that real conversation with my body or I was more thinking about, okay, when I'm gonna move.

34:56
I either do it for a goal, like for a purpose because I want something, I get something, or I do it as exercise to have more of, I don't know, gaining strength or having an aesthetic outcome. And then it's much more of a command to the body, like something that I would not use in animal training. In animal training now I talk about cues, which is like an opportunity for behavior and it's not like, okay, if you don't do it, then...

35:25
you will get something bad. And that really was a revelation to me to get into that conversation with yourself and your body to ask, okay, can you lift the shoulder here or is it better here or how can you, how would it actually be possible to do that? And maybe if you are not able to do that, if it doesn't feel good, then why not go like.

35:55
a lot of steps back and also splitting up things like in animal training you split up the behavior into smaller parts and you see okay I'm gonna take this part, I'm gonna do this variation, I'm also generalizing it to a lot of different contexts and going slow and every different context is something new and I'm gonna see.

36:18
how it translates to the new context. Maybe I have to start all over again and it's just something completely different. It needs to be learned just from zero. Yeah, and it took me so long, like compared to like I started with dogs, then it even took me like five years to apply to my horses, the positive work.

36:41
And because I always felt like, ah, it's too much work, it's too, maybe too effortful, can I really do it? A horse is bigger than a dog and stuff like that. Like there are all kinds of excuses. And then finally, now I'm at my own self and applying those things really being gentle with myself and like asking questions and not inferring anything. And most importantly, I think is not labeling stuff.

37:09
Like not telling myself, okay, this was bad, you're lazy, you're, I don't know, not maybe not even going too deep into emotional labels, because sometimes it's, we just like we put a label on things and then it's like it's done, it's categorized, we can put it away. Sometimes it's helpful to regulate the emotions. But if you want to stay with the experience, and if you want to analyze it and like feel it.

37:39
see what's around you and see what's why you are triggered or why this came up and maybe it's, maybe it's, maybe you're just hungry. So it's a lot of different things that can influence you. So yeah, not inferring anything too soon. Right. Not inferring is kind of jumping to a conclusion, right? It's, it's...

38:06
Oh, this is what it is, as opposed to that openness we were talking about. Um, earlier you mentioned positive reinforcement, uh, that you were discovering in your life and how. Like, oh, like this is how, you know, you think of positive reinforcement with an animal and training, and then also it's like playing out in your life. I think that's really insightful. I mean, would you share more about that? What does.

38:31
What does that look like for us humans? Where do we find positive reinforcement?

38:39
Well, I think we think more as like, like the general public probably thinks more of things like why you do that, because you're motivated to do something. And I would explain it somehow a bit differently. Like you do something because a behavior in your past had a good outcome, a good consequence. And so when you have that...

39:08
environment that contextual situation again, like it accused from your environment again. And you you had that consequence. That's how you learn. You will do that behavior again, like you're more likely to try this thing again, because it worked in your past. And of course, there are negative outcomes as well. So if you have some negative experiences with a behavior in a certain context, then you might refrain from doing that.

39:39
Yeah, so I was thinking like, how are all my things like, why, just why am I doing stuff? Like why?

39:51
what are the things that I like to do and why do I like to do them? And it's because they gave me joy either through external consequences like external motivation. Somebody would say like somebody gave you money and internal motivations would be something that's like you're doing from the inside because you have a passion for it. But I think like also that passion at first might have been.

40:21
externally reinforced. So a lot of the times it's coming from the outside and then at some point you do it because you're, yeah, you found a lot of different consequences that you like for the thing you do. And it's more of a broader thing. And that's why you are not so dependent anymore on like somebody giving you money for something, for example. And I think...

40:50
if you have more of this inner motivation, then you are more in control of the reinforces. I think that's somewhere where you can draw the line between internal or intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivations that you have control over the reinforces when it's internal. You do something and by doing that you get the outcome. I don't know.

41:20
I'm making cake. I can do, I know how to make the cake. So I'm getting the cake. I'm not dependent on somebody giving me cake for whatever behavior it's dependent upon.

41:36
Was that understandable? I don't know. Yeah, well that's like the maturation process, right? We move out of just strictly the conditions that shaped us into we kind of choose what we want and choose like, okay, well this part of my conditioning is not so great, so I'm going to choose this, and I'm going to condition myself over time. I'm going to choose, I'm going to play a hand in being the environment that shapes me.

42:04
I'm going to continue to shape myself. It's a little still abstract, but it's you take charge of your life in a sense. And how you learn going forward. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's always somehow your environment shaping you and of course you can't influence like all the outcomes you will get like you can't control other people but you can.

42:32
you can change everything that's somehow in your control and then you can have a better outcome. And sometimes like we do in ATMs or in an FI that it's sometimes it's nice to have a constraint because it's bringing out different things. And also if you are in a situation where you can't control everything, it might be nice and you can learn from that.

43:02
Yeah, in this framing that you have here, it's very emotionally sort of neutral. It's not dramatic, right? That, okay, I had this experience, I was reinforced in this way. Oh, I like these things. I had this environment. I like these things. I continue to like these. It's sort of like, it has such a nice simplicity of it. Because I think when we...

43:32
take stories about our past, right? Cause you could also frame it in a more emotional story. Like, you know, when I was growing up, my parents acted this way and they, I got my needs met this way, but I didn't get them met this way. And I didn't like this and I didn't like that. And you know, and I'm spending a lot of time right now with, you know, my parents in the past year. I can see more clearly how they are and what that must've been like for a younger me. And

44:02
Sometimes like that stings a bit or I don't like that so much or like the awareness is so there's a little burning quality with the awareness. Oh they're like oh I get it wow and then also it's just like straight up information of course. Of course oh man of course I'm this way because I spent this time with these people and I went to this school of course of course you know that I relate to knowledge generation you know.

44:31
in this way, or I want to get facts, or I want to learn things, I want to, you know, perform for tests, right? Like, it plays on my behavior in all these different ways, right? Of course, I've been shaped. And, but that's not the end of the story, right? We can continue to learn and reshape. And I like that it's just like, okay, how have I been reinforced? Yeah, it's good or bad. For me, it's giving somehow a bit of peace, because it's

45:02
Like things happen because there is a long history behind them. And it's not because somebody made in an instant an intentional choice to be bad to you or something or say something really bad. But there is a learning history behind it. And people reinforce that person for saying exactly that thing to others in a good or bad way. And it's a bit like I can be more empathic by that to other.

45:32
humans or but also other animals. If I say like, okay, it's not a it's not a mean behavior, or they are not being, they are not trying to be mean to me. They are just like doing what worked for them in a previous context. So it's not me. It's it's just like what they learned and how they were shaped. And yeah, I just think that's very peaceful, very peaceful, maybe even stoic.

46:01
kind of seeing the world, but yeah. Absolutely. But still like behavior is plastic. Like sometimes we think like, okay, we have a habit that's fixed and we are that way. We have a personality or a character, but at least in the Feldenkrais bubble, we I think acknowledge that there is change happening. And...

46:26
really I've seen behaviors switch so rapidly if you just change a bit of the context and it's so nice to just also have that reassurance that okay you just change a bit of the context, you change a bit of the relationship between things and then a new behavior emerges because that one is not useful anymore.

46:51
Hmm. Yeah. Do you have an example of a radical change?

46:57
that you've observed? I've a radical change.

47:09
Well, I think like I was I was giving a talk about habit change once. I mean, that's not an example directly of a radical change. But like, how would you change a habit so that it's that it will last, you would, you would see in which context you are doing that behavior, for example, let's take smoking and you're always smoking, like last thing of your day, you're

47:38
having a cigarette on the balcony. And so when's the best time to stop that? Maybe if you go on vacation, you don't have a balcony maybe, or you're not, it's maybe it's cold and you don't want to go outside and stuff like that. So there are some, some things in your new environment, in your new situation that prevent that. Maybe you don't even have time because after your day you spent, I don't know, dinner with your friends and there is no real point where you...

48:08
go out and have smoke. And then you can try and establish a new ritual or a new contingency in that new environment. So you also have to look at the functions when you analyze behavior, you can always say, okay, what, why, why do you do it? What, what do you feel? How do you feel afterwards? Like what, what's getting you? Why, why is it getting you there? And

48:36
For this, it could be like unwinding, like reflecting your day. Maybe it's even also like the sensory experience and like having something in your mouth maybe. So there's a lot of aspects to it and you have to somehow replace at least some of them and put them on a new, like give an alternative behavior more or less to get to the same outcome. So if you want to unwind and reflect, maybe do it with your partner.

49:05
maybe do it by journaling or yeah and maybe like if you if you're smoking for example to be in a social context or you're smoking in a social context mainly then try to have a conversation like have the same social feedback or the same context without the smoke so yeah I think thinking

49:36
and how you can do it differently. For example, if you're doing a movement in pain, but you don't have another way to doing it, then you have to find that way first. And then probably it's easier to do that movement, not in the same context. Like if you have back pain while you're standing up and you're always standing up from your desk the same way, that's gonna be hard. But if you go somewhere else and stand up from a different chair, it's gonna be...

50:06
easier to translate that.

50:10
Right, because that points to how our environment is so influential in our experience, that changing the environment is such a big piece in itself, or changing the verb, whether it's smoking or whatever it is, taking that action somewhere else or changing out that action for something new, and doing it in such a way that you're curious about what could be

50:40
What do I need right now? Or how is this helpful for me? And then you can have a more clear step of like, okay, I'm gonna replace this, I'm gonna try this. And then, you know, with that openness we've been talking about, it's like, that might not work out. So I'll have to do it again and again, and kind of find it. Yeah. And yeah, and I'm also not a huge fan of willpower or getting...

51:08
into a new mindset with willpower alone because that's actually that's the hardest thing. I think if you can set up yourself for success too then that's really cool. And like also if you fail to succeed because like one context really is so binding for you then just be patient with yourself and like excuse yourself and like acknowledge that this is like the worst.

51:37
Context to apply the new learning then so so be it like you don't have to do it everywhere from from once Yeah Very cool, Caroline. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your wisdom sharing your experience Thank you so much. I'm curious. How can people learn more about what you do? Yeah, where can they follow you?

52:07
Yeah, I think I'm mainly active on Instagram. So my handle is flor Like with a, it's florafauna and then a, how is that line called? The bottom line. Oh, the underscore? Yeah. Okay. So my handle is florafauna underscore feldenkreis on Instagram. And I'm also on thread since two days or so.

52:37
I'm on Facebook with my normal name Caroline Ritter, but I'm not so active there. I have a website which is www. I have weekly or I have monthly online classes that I announce on my newsletter and also on my Instagram.

53:07
You can chime in anytime and try something out. I'm also, I have an upcoming course for horse people, where we will explore some of the things, some of the principles that are important for positive horse training on ourselves, like experience such things like positive reinforcement and the power of the paws and stuff like that on ourselves. I'm really looking forward to that. Awesome. Very cool.

53:37
I'll make sure that's all in the show notes so people can find you. And maybe one other thing, I have a project where I promote the positive training with horses and that's called Disco Cavallo.

53:53
And that will be like, that's also an Instagram and has a website. Awesome. Well, I know there's a lot more for us to talk about in the future. So I look forward to having another conversation with you. This was really great. I'm it's been awesome. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. If you want to learn more about Caroline, go to the show notes and you can find her links there. Also, you'll find links to.

54:23
my newsletter and my offerings there as well. So if you're interested in working with me, please check it out. Just like we brought up in this conversation, having conversations is really important for taking what we're learning and understanding it better and sharing it and bringing it into the world. So I recommend, I invite you to take what you heard today, some piece of it perhaps.

54:52
and share it with a friend or a loved one? What did, what was interesting? What was surprising? What gave you an aha? And share that with someone and see how they relate to the ideas. My final question for you today is, in this episode we talked about building a knowledge system, learning about ourselves and our habits and our preferences and that we're changing

55:22
growing evolving person so our knowledge system evolves too.

55:29
And awareness through movement is a way of doing that. So I'm curious, what is your way of learning about yourself? How do you understand yourself more clearly over time? What processes, what activities, what type of reflection, perhaps, helps you in that?

55:54
Well, I'd love to hear from you. Please send me an email at jeffrey at expa It's in the show notes. Love to hear from you what you think. All right. Thank you for your attention.